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Thread: 4betting and 4bet shoving?

  1. #1
    Goldnutz69's Avatar
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    4betting and 4bet shoving?

    I played the NST main event this past Sat,and I've been thinking about this a ton. Basically I feel like I had quite a few great spots to make a play by 4betting or 4bet shoving. In the later stages of the tourney the better players where relentlessly 3betting the weaker ones. I felt like most of the times these spots came i really didnt have the correct stack size to make the play and just folded. I've mainly played small field tourneys and SnG's, So i haven't really seen a ton of these spots. Soooo the questions i have are


    1.) When do you look to 4bet or 4bet shove?

    2.) What do you consider the perfect 4bet shove stack size?

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    Goldnutz69's Avatar
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    My perfect 3bet shove stack is 15-30bb's. That being said is 25-50 a perfect 4bet shove stack?

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    selfproclaim's Avatar
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    Wow, no feedback on this post huh! Surprising.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by selfproclaim View Post
    Wow, no feedback on this post huh! Surprising.
    Excellent post D.C.

    I think this is a great topic Chuck. Thanks for posting it.

    Here are a few relevant excerpts from my several page tournament poker notes document.

    Please note that I have a lot more good notes about three-betting than I do four-betting. Still, these notes might be helpful to some:

    + If three-betting would require more than 20% of your stack, it’s nearly always better to fold or shove.

    + If three-bet shoving would be less than ten times the initial raise size, just shove.

    + Consider shoving pre-flop when the pot is greater than 20% of your stack.

    + Shoving pre-flop widens your perceived range, so take this line more often with monsters.

    + Hardly ever raise/fold with less than 20 BB when there are antes.

    + Don’t speculate with less than 30 BB.

    + Don’t normally three-bet with less than 30 BB, except with premium hands.

    + Hardly ever 3-bet/fold with less than 30 BB.
    Last edited by Chipless Wonder; 03-03-2012 at 04:36 PM.
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    I disagree with all of your points Scott.

    Or I mean its valid points, but I break all of em 20 times a day. You shouldnt make rules against optimale plays.
    Last edited by Vestvik7; 03-03-2012 at 09:34 PM.
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    Great topic...

    As a general rule, 4betting in weak mid-stakes MTTs in the early to mid stage should be done for value only. This, of course, assumes no particular info on villains. With info/HUD data, it is of course fine to go to war by concocting a 4bet-fold range and even a cold 4bet/fold range with 60bbs+. Later on in the same tourney when the blinds are more valuable, everyone should be loosening up, making 3bets with hands that can't withstand a 4bet. In this scenario, your 4bet will often need to be a shove owing to the shorter stacks of everyone so it's important to balance your range of value 4betting hands with hands like Axs, Kxs, 89s, 910s - ie. hands that play well versus the calling range (most of the time these will give u 26-38% when called)

    The stack that is most leveraged versus a 3bet is the 30-35bb stacks because the 3bet is usually between 5x and 6x. The 4bet normally needs to be just a click back so 12x is common. Mathematically-speaking, this 4bet could over a quarter of your stack and still allow you to fold to a 5bet jam if you don't have the goods and just felt that it would get through often enough. I know that sounds spewy but as long as the likelihood of getting it through is great enough, it is a sound and profitable long-term strategy.

    Like Vegard says, it is wise to have rules - a sort of abc of poker moves - that you will obey most of the time. But then, once you have them, it's wise to break them sometimes!

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