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Thread: UTG shoving range short-handed

  1. #1
    Chipless Wonder's Avatar
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    UTG shoving range short-handed

    Here is an interesting spot from Dana's T.O.C. event over the weekend.

    $250 buy-in, 26 players, 5 remain, blinds (antes) are 3,000/6,000 (1,000), payout structure is very flat (~$400 for fifth place to $1,000 for first place).

    SB ~ 75,000 (13 BB)
    BB ~ 85,000 (14 BB)
    UTG ~ 70,000 (12 BB), strong player
    UTG + 1 ~ 195,000 (33 BB), me
    B ~ 95,000 (~ 16 BB)

    In this hand, UTG shoved all in for ~ 70,000 chips, which was about 12 BB. I was next to act with a nice chip lead.

    Here are two questions worth discussing:

    1. What range should UTG be shoving in this spot?

    2. What range should I be re-shoving after he shoves?
    Last edited by Chipless Wonder; 08-20-2012 at 12:49 PM.
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  2. #2
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    First off, I was sitting at this final table so my opinion may be tainted because I know the result; but I will try to be as neutral as possible.

    I think 4 of the 5 players at this table should be ready to ship any Ace, any pair, KQ... that being said (I was SB), my shipping range at this stage in the came probably also includes just about any King, and most suit and/or connected cards 9 or better. (Knowing the UTG player here, I'd say he's about as wide as me )

    As chip leader, I think you're reshipping with about any Ace, any pair, KQ... possibly even KJ, KT. Especially with no one to act behind you that can really do any more damage than the antagonist.

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    Based on stack sizes I like the following for UTG shove range:
    77-JJ, 10Js, KJ, KQ, AJ, AQ
    Standard raise with A8-A10, K10, QJ, QQ-AA and AK.
    Do you limp with small pairs or fold them? What about a 2.2x raise with 33-66?

    Re-shove Range UTG+1:
    88-JJ, AJ, AQ, AK, QQ-AA

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    One thing to keep in mind here is the stack sizes. There really isnt any reason to ship light UTG short handed when the stacks are all relative minus 1. Especially with the big stack and a player who has potential to call light to your left.

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    Couple important things here......What is the structure...is it good or is it turbish.....Also how bad are the other players?.....bad or muppet ass clown crack baby bad?....You also said the guy is Good. is the guy Tight/good spewy/good........... If i am utg i am shoving 22-99 any broadway...I am Mini-inducing 1010 JJ QQ KK AA...... since this is live i think i need 88+ AQ+...Online 77 AJ....

    Also note if the other players are real bad, esp the tight bad I woudlnt call marginally here, esp if its a good structure, U can fold here and just rip it in thier eyes and they will fold to death especiailly live......

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    With this payout structure, I dont think I would go for building monster stacks. The most important thing for me is to get to the money. I know that is usually counter intuitive for seasoned MTT players. However, The risk of bubbling is not worth the extra prize money for coming in first. If I were Scott with 33bb vs 4 other 10-15 bb stacks, I would open ship with almost ATC. But, I would tighten up my range vs other opens or ships. I only call here with 99+, AKo. I am even folding 88. I dont think adding 12 BB is worth flipping vs two overcards.
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    Hey guys, how's everybody doing? Scott's question seems to be strictly what the correct ranges "should" be; to give a read less mathematical answer the easy thing to do is plug the numbers and payouts in an ICM calculator. I did so, roughly guessing what 2nd to 4th players get paid, and voila, you have your range: HoldemResources.net: ICM Nash Calculator


    Now you make adjustments based on what your reads and perception of the players are and go from there.

    TC everybody

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    Last edited by andressoprano; 08-22-2012 at 02:24 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by andressoprano View Post
    Hey guys, how's everybody doing? Scott's question seems to be strictly what the correct ranges "should" be; to give a read less mathematical answer the easy thing to do is plug the numbers and payouts in an ICM calculator. I did so, roughly guessing what 2nd to 4th players get paid, and voila, you have your range: HoldemResources.net: ICM Nash Calculator




    Now you make adjustments based on what your reads and perception of the players are and go from there.

    TC everybody

    Andres
    If I read the chart correctly, I think I was almost spot on.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by andressoprano
    Scott's question seems to be strictly what the correct ranges "should" be; to give a read less mathematical answer the easy thing to do is plug the numbers and payouts in an ICM calculator. I did so, roughly guessing what 2nd to 4th players get paid, and voila, you have your range
    For those who aren't familiar with ICM Nash calculations, Andres showed that it is mathematically correct for UTG to push with his top 17.8% of hands in this spot. That range looks like this: 55+, A2s+, ATo+, K9s+, KTo+, Q9s+, QJo and JTs.

    If we then assume the UTG player is playing somewhere near correctly, it would be mathematically correct for me to re-shove with my top 6.3% of hands in this spot. That range looks like this: 77+, AJs+ and AQo+.

    Now you make adjustments based on what your reads and perception of the players are and go from there.
    And yes, once we know the correct mathematical ranges, we should adjust them based on how we think each player is playing at this time.

    In the actual hand, Dan's UTG shove was clearly correct with:



    And my reship was definitely a mistake with:



    Looks like I will need to play more than one live tournament per calendar year if I want to be any good at this game.

    Quote Originally Posted by rounder63
    I am Mini-inducing 1010 JJ QQ KK AA......
    I would not have thought of this, but I really like it.
    Last edited by Chipless Wonder; 08-22-2012 at 11:22 AM.
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    It is optimal for UTG to shove any pair, any suited ace, A7+, K5s+, K9+, Q9s+, Q10, 10Js, 910s, 89s ...

    If everyone at the table is solid, I would shove my entire range (ie not induce) as constructing a raise-fold range with 12bbs is a bit gross and it looks more suspicious to min-raise open to anybody smart.

    The calling range UTG+1 has to be pretty tight despite how wide the shove range should be due to the three players behind. Optimally, I would say 77+, A10s+, AJ+, KQs.
    Last edited by LAPPIN; 09-22-2012 at 09:08 AM.

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