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Thread: Fold overpair KK on flop?

  1. #1
    MrJohn is offline Plankton

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    Question Fold overpair KK on flop?

    Hey, guys! Nice forum. Will be an active member - I promise

    This happened at Carbon, almost double stacked, $0.1/$0.25 NL (This is pretty much my whole BR here because I built this from nothing... after getting around $2 from a freeroll ) , I got dealt KK... just a side note: MP1 was pretty loose aggressive and we had squared of on hands more than once because he was playing a lot of hands (I think i beat him most of the times).

    This is PTs stats on him for ~80 hands:
    Vol.put $74.7
    PFR -1.2
    Agression 0.97

    $0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
    8 players

    Stacks:
    UTG ($25.00)
    UTG+1 ($29.22)
    MP1 ($47.79)
    MP2 ($4.30)
    CO ($5.00)
    BTN ($10.54)
    Hero ($40.26)
    BB ($38.18)
    [CO posted $0.25]

    Pre-flop: ($0.60, 8 players) Hero is SB
    2 folds, MP1 calls $0.25, MP2 calls $0.25, CO checks, BTN calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.50, 1 fold, MP1 calls $1.25, MP2 folds, CO folds, BTN folds

    Flop: ($4, 2 players)
    Hero bets $2.50, MP1 raises to $34.75,

    What do you say? Trips? 2 Pair? bluff? TT/QQ or other PP? Nut flush draw?
    Insta call or insta fold? this bet just puzzled me so though maybe someone with more experience could explain...

    Cheers!
    J

  2. #2
    Houdini9 is offline Tuna

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrJohn View Post
    Hey, guys! Nice forum. Will be an active member - I promise

    This happened at Carbon, almost double stacked, $0.1/$0.25 NL (This is pretty much my whole BR here because I built this from nothing... after getting around $2 from a freeroll ) , I got dealt KK... just a side note: MP1 was pretty loose aggressive and we had squared of on hands more than once because he was playing a lot of hands (I think i beat him most of the times).

    This is PTs stats on him for ~80 hands:
    Vol.put $74.7
    PFR -1
    Agression 0.97

    $0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
    8 players

    Stacks:
    UTG ($25.00)
    UTG+1 ($29.22)
    MP1 ($47.79)
    MP2 ($4.30)
    CO ($5.00)
    BTN ($10.54)
    Hero ($40.26)
    BB ($38.18)
    [CO posted $0.25]

    Pre-flop: ($0.60, 8 players) Hero is SB
    2 folds, MP1 calls $0.25, MP2 calls $0.25, CO checks, BTN calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.50, 1 fold, MP1 calls $1.25, MP2 folds, CO folds, BTN folds

    Flop: ($4, 2 players)
    Hero bets $2.50, MP1 raises to $34.75,

    What do you say? Trips? 2 Pair? bluff? TT/QQ or other PP? Nut flush draw?
    Insta call or insta fold? this bet just puzzled me so though maybe someone with more experience could explain...

    Cheers!
    J
    welcome.

    I'd say he has top pair protecting against what he thinks is your flush draw. Doesn't look like u tried to protect a big pair preflop betting and he prolly thinks u are loose Agro too. I snap call his overbet....why would he try to scare I off the hand if he flopped the nut flush? He either has top pair or total air. Snap call and laugh all the way to Pnw-Town.
    Goot Luck!

    Jeff Allen

  3. #3
    AnotherNewbie's Avatar
    AnotherNewbie is offline Plankton

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    Hi everyone! I've been playing NL25 for a year or so and know that kind of guys grinding there...

    You guys are both "about" 200BB deep. This guy is a calling station. With stats of 74/1.2/0.96. When you see that much agression from a station its a fold. The only thing u may be ahead of is a combo and thats barely. For 100BB I may call but not 200BB.

    PS. You need to raise more PF. A good rule of thumb is start at 4BB then add 1BB for every caller and then 1BB sometimes 2BB for being OOP. You have 2 blinds and a CO that posted. I would make it like $2.50 PF.

  4. #4
    MrJohn is offline Plankton

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    You did nail him as a calling station, was pretty easy to know when to bet and when to play it safe with this guy.. plus he would only 'call' all bets, no raising.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnotherNewbie View Post
    The only thing u may be ahead of is a combo and thats barely. For 100BB I may call but not 200BB.
    Can you explain what you mean by a combo please? do you mean flush draw?

    this was one of the strangest bets i have ever come across, i was already being betting so if he hit trips.. he could let me walk into it a bit more. just dont get it.

    I folded, actually, i wouldnt have called 100BB either.. just seemed like a weird hand.
    I dont know if its because i'm still learning or something but I prefer going up in increments till the river... and thats how i usually play/bet.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnotherNewbie View Post
    PS. You need to raise more PF. A good rule of thumb is start at 4BB then add 1BB for every caller and then 1BB sometimes 2BB for being OOP. You have 2 blinds and a CO that posted. I would make it like $2.50 PF.
    I see, i knew about the 4xbb but didnt know about adding for the others, I though $1.50 (6x) was plenty (esp as i was OOP)... will try adding this to my game.
    Up till which hands do you do this? (TT? JJ? QQ? AKo? AQ? AJs? ATs?)

    Thanks!
    J

  5. #5
    New Leader's Avatar
    New Leader is offline Administrator

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    Cool

    This doesn't look like a set or two pair but more like a flush draw. I think an important thing with this particular opponent is, what happened with him in last 10-15 hands, did he get bluffed big or somebody sucked out on him. Because I see this kind of plays from opponents who got frustrated by something in previous hands. Or maybe they saw you make some move and take down a big pot without any contest or something like that. If there was no apparent reason for his aggression then you're most likely beat with some silly two pair.

    Like AnotherNewbie said you should bet more preflop, especially because you're OOP. You don't want to play these big hands against multiple opponents cause they're just too vulnerable.

    "Up till which hands do you do this? (TT? JJ? QQ? AKo? AQ? AJs? ATs?) " What do you mean with this? Yeah if your style is to raise those hands preflop then you should raise them strong as suggested. But you're also getting some very nice odds for a SB, so you can also limp with many drawy hands like SC, Axs, small PP. Depends on the tendencies of the table, if there is many limping preflop and people like to call bets to see flops or they fold to single bets.

  6. #6
    MrJohn is offline Plankton

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    Quote Originally Posted by New Leader View Post
    This doesn't look like a set or two pair but more like a flush draw. I think an important thing with this particular opponent is, what happened with him in last 10-15 hands, did he get bluffed big or somebody sucked out on him...
    Hey!

    Actually, I did

    It really was quite silly, i was holding AA and I bet around 6xbb... many folded two callers including him, flop K 2 8, I make nearly a pot size bet and he raises... third person folds its just him and me now, I push he calls... turn and riv: 5 2

    He turns over K8 of clubs - 2 pair... but since the board paired I had 2 pair too and he doubled me up.

    We did the suckout dance... i was ahead preflop, he was on flop and turn and again i came back on riv.

    This happened something like 20 hands back.

    "Up till which hands do you do this? (TT? JJ? QQ? AKo? AQ? AJs? ATs?) " What do you mean with this?
    I meant which hands are considered "big hands" here for me to use this advise "A good rule of thumb is start at 4BB then add 1BB for every caller and then 1BB sometimes 2BB for being OOP." because i doubt this strategy is limited to just AA and KK.. so which other hands should i use this when OOP like i was here?

    Thanks!
    J

  7. #7
    AnotherNewbie's Avatar
    AnotherNewbie is offline Plankton

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    If its folded around to you can raise a big range. About ATC against a lot opponents who are not loose or cs.

    if it's not folded around i tighten up a lot.

    I limp/call small pp 22-66 and call/raise the other ones.

    When nobody opens you can raise AJ+ too.

    I think it depends a lot on the players.

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