Checking in the dark

[Chipless Wonder]

Who uses this move? When do you you feel it's beneficial?

If you're the opponent, what does it usually mean to you? And how do you combat this move?

This should be an interesting discussion topic...

[PokerBroker]

I definitely use this tactic a good amount in a cash game although I can't remember a time when I have done it in a tournament... strange.

While most people's range of starting hands gets wider as they gain position I think it is fair to say that my range of starting hands is almost ALWAYS wide. In a cash game I often use the "dark check" when I am calling a raise with a drawing hand (connectors, suited, poop truck, etc) from someone who I know has me crushed with a monster.

My expectation is that I am most often going to check-fold here with these hands, so a dark check allows my opponent a little more confidence when they flop top pair, have an overpair, etc. I expect to either fold or raise after my dark check and it is almost always a black and white decision. If I flop a monster I will probably end up with all of their chips.

This has won me a very large sum of money in cash games, but I still use it sparingly. It is hard to trap someone when you have been labelled a "trapper."

[D-Nut]

I was really hoping I could be the first one in on this topic as to not offend anyone......but I guess it is what it is.

And besides....it's just Ryan, and he hopefully knows I'm not just throwing stones.

But my thoughts on 95% of the people that check dark......are that they are douche-bags. They saw it on TV and think it looks cool, and have no idea what kind of advantage, if any, they are trying to utilize.

Now, I always try to tell it like it is, or at least how I feel, but I also try to be fair.....and it seems like Ryan has a very legitimate reason for why he uses this move....and it may help him achieve a profit regularly. Notice...I said 95% But the mass majority of people I see use this move, are trying to be the cocky dick at the table who wants to prove that he has game.....when in all reality he has no game at all.

One thing that Ryan said stuck out to me though....and that he uses it with drawing hands....and that is what I find almost everytime as well.....and when someone checks dark into me.....and the board comes pretty raggedy....I almost always will bet the flop....knowing that they are simply trying to disguise whether they drew out.

Unfortunately, one of my favorite players, Phil Hellmuth overuses this move, so I suppose it must serve some purpose.....but again, the mass majority of the people you see at the brick and mortar room using this move are simply d-bags.

My opinion.....and I have plenty of them....mostly controversial, but this should at least get people talking

[JTDiggity]

lol, not sure I want to follow Dave's post...but...I actually like this move sometimes. I don't do it to be a d-bag, as much as I use it get more information. 95% of the time I do it is on the flop. In my opinion, this move allows me to gain position in a hand when I am tremendously out of position. I often only use it with players that I feel will overplay top/middle pair and those who I fee I can outplay once the flop comes down. I have also found the dark check / re-raise to be extremely effective in slowing down table bullies. So, right or wrong, I like the move. I see the perspective of those who feel it is a cocky d-bag move, and that may be my intent in using it sometimes, but I typically do it switch up the play and throw off my opponent(s).

[otbdave]

Originally Posted by D-Nut

I was really hoping I could be the first one in on this topic as to not offend anyone......but I guess it is what it is.

And besides....it's just Ryan, and he hopefully knows I'm not just throwing stones.

But my thoughts on 95% of the people that check dark......are that they are douche-bags. They saw it on TV and think it looks cool, and have no idea what kind of advantage, if any, they are trying to utilize.

Now, I always try to tell it like it is, or at least how I feel, but I also try to be fair.....and it seems like Ryan has a very legitimate reason for why he uses this move....and it may help him achieve a profit regularly. Notice...I said 95% But the mass majority of people I see use this move, are trying to be the cocky dick at the table who wants to prove that he has game.....when in all reality he has no game at all.

One thing that Ryan said stuck out to me though....and that he uses it with drawing hands....and that is what I find almost everytime as well.....and when someone checks dark into me.....and the board comes pretty raggedy....I almost always will bet the flop....knowing that they are simply trying to disguise whether they drew out.

Unfortunately, one of my favorite players, Phil Hellmuth overuses this move, so I suppose it must serve some purpose.....but again, the mass majority of the people you see at the brick and mortar room using this move are simply d-bags.

My opinion.....and I have plenty of them....mostly controversial, but this should at least get people talking

All joking aside...

I do this move for a few reasons and if one of them makes me look like a dueschebag, the cocky guy at the table that wants to prove he has some game, than I would only consider this an advatage This is the same reason I regularily "talk shit" to (random) players online. I have not seen a whole lot of players use it in brick and mortar, but hopefully Dave's oberservations run true because I only hope to fall in to the tag of players he has described.

More importantly, it allows you to act last, you automatically get more information. Let me explain it this way...

In poker these days, the cbet is a standard play for any decent player. In live poker, if I am going to check absolutely 100% of the time when I am in first position, why should I bother seeing the cards come out. When I call a raise from someone else preflop I am either going to checkraise or checkfold, thats the end of the story. I do not only checkraise with trapping hands, a checkraise bluff is a great play as well against advanced players.

If you check dark and only continue action when you have a monster hand, you reason for checking dark is not good. Any decent player will quickly realize what you are doing and he will be able to cbet you off every time you don't hit a monster, and fold overpairs when you do hit your set. You might as well be better of by starting to lead out. The checkraise somes across as a powerful play, use it to your advantage. If you are going to check from first position every time, and vary your play depending on what the raiser does (cause you already know most of the time) you have managed to get the raiser to think you have position on him, obviously a powerful concept in poker. It does not even matter that you do not have position the rest of the hand, because by making a checkraise you are saying ("I want to play this hand for all your chips") whether or not you actually do (bluff)

It is all about putting the other player to the all in (or threat of an all in) decision.

[wreaks]

I agree with just about everything Dave and Ryan said, except trying to put other people on tilt. So I won't reiterate what they said, but I will add one thing.

Depending on the preflop action, I will check dark with AA or KK against 1 or 2 opponents (action would usually be something like I raise, there is a reraise and I smooth call out of position against an aggressive opponent). There are virtually no flops I'm going to fold those hands to heads up in cash, so I'm going to check raise.

The best part about the dark-check-raise is that is looks SO much like a move, especially from us young guys, that you'll either get called or shoved on a lot. (It all depends on the board though.)

[Chipless Wonder]

Here is an interesting quote from Harrington on Relationships...

Originally Posted by Dan Harrington

SCENARIO
Player A is a sneaky female player who uses her skills to get infomation.
Player B is a well-intentioned lug looking to have some fun.
Player A: "We have been sleeping together a few months now, so are we like a couple now?"
ANALYSIS: She makes a probe bet while you are out of position. This is why you should try to play in position. Your strategy here should be to check in the dark.
Player B: "That's so strange. I was just going to ask you the same thing. What do you think?"

[D-Nut]

Originally Posted by Chipless Wonder

Here is an interesting quote from Harrington on Relationships...

Sounds to me that checking in the dark would be a real D-Bag move by Player B. He needs to "man-up" and answer the question like a man.....

[otbdave]

Does anyone have Harrington on Relationships and can I borrow it?