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Thread: Merge late game short stacks

  1. #1
    Cambo71's Avatar
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    Merge late game short stacks

    Playing mtts and 45 mans on merge, the late game structure often ends up being an ultra short stack. There are some mtts where the chip leader has only 20bbs late and the avg stack is often under 10bbs. I was the chip leader of a 45 final table and I had under 10 bbs.

    Does this change the standard of dont open fold with 15 to 20 bbs?

    Is it ok to open fold 10bb if you are going to still be a top stack?

    I have tightened up my range lately and I think my results have been better. I definately think the dynamics of the merge game is different from other sites as the play late will be very short stacked.

    I open folded 10 12 bbs on a 45 final table and I think I was correct to do so and I think it may have been correct to open and not shove, (not necessarily mathmatically but given the game and icm dynamics).

    I would love a discussion about this.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambo71 View Post
    Playing mtts and 45 mans on merge, the late game structure often ends up being an ultra short stack. There are some mtts where the chip leader has only 20bbs late and the avg stack is often under 10bbs. I was the chip leader of a 45 final table and I had under 10 bbs.

    Does this change the standard of dont open fold with 15 to 20 bbs?

    Is it ok to open fold 10bb if you are going to still be a top stack?

    I have tightened up my range lately and I think my results have been better. I definately think the dynamics of the merge game is different from other sites as the play late will be very short stacked.

    I open folded 10 12 bbs on a 45 final table and I think I was correct to do so and I think it may have been correct to open and not shove, (not necessarily mathmatically but given the game and icm dynamics).

    I would love a discussion about this.
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    What types of hands are you raise/folding? the problem with this is, with antes, we are getting such good odds when someone shoves 10bbs over our raise, we are wrong to fold most hands vs most people. In most situations I disagree with ever raise/folding 10bbs in an ante-d tourney. A spot where i can see doing it, however, is on a money bubble vs a tight player when you have him covered, preferably when there is 1 or 2 micro stacks. This way we know villain isn't going to shove wide, so even with great odds we can justify a fold.

    I don't think we have to be nearly as "desperate" in these tourneys. we can fold down to 8bbs in spots and still be top 3 at the final table. This means we can still take out people or cripple them, which means F/E. I've played these tourneys lately and I really think this is how we make our money (getting people to fold when they shouldn't). We put tons of pressure on people by shoving, but we don't have to shove any two in LP or with a decent ace from EP, like we would in a normal mtt because "we only have 10bbs." We use our fold equity by shoving in late position, vs tight players etc. I remember getting crippled 6 handed and having like 4bbs in the BB guy limp/folds the SB to me and I proceed to work my stack up to chip leader with no showdown over the next 6-8 hands lol.
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    the hand in particular I had in mind with correctly folding 10bb was AJo utg with nine left. There was a bunch of short stacks at the table with one stack that had me covered. I was planning on calling shoves from everyone at the table except for the one who had me covered. I think pushing utg in this spot is a mistake because I am only getting called from the big stack be better hands. So if you think the min raise utg and maybe folding is a mistake then the alteranative would be folding preflop rather than pushing. I think another question is the guy who has me covered a reg who will exploit my open fold. I think pushing more from the c/o, button and sb is more worthwhile. I took this one down so my fold paid off, (I know results orientated) but I think tempered aggression late in these will make more money. I used to use an equilibrium push fold strategy but tightening up more I think is more successful.
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    If your plan of attack is opening/calling any stack but the one you folded to because you know he is a reg and can exploit you then I dont mind it. If you plan on opening/folding to anyone but 1-2 players then its horrible as a steal attempt basically. I am pretty sure I did this alot in FTP 45s with ~10bbs with AQo+ AJs+ 88+
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambo71 View Post
    the hand in particular I had in mind with correctly folding 10bb was AJo utg with nine left. There was a bunch of short stacks at the table with one stack that had me covered. I was planning on calling shoves from everyone at the table except for the one who had me covered. I think pushing utg in this spot is a mistake because I am only getting called from the big stack be better hands. So if you think the min raise utg and maybe folding is a mistake then the alteranative would be folding preflop rather than pushing. I think another question is the guy who has me covered a reg who will exploit my open fold. I think pushing more from the c/o, button and sb is more worthwhile. I took this one down so my fold paid off, (I know results orientated) but I think tempered aggression late in these will make more money. I used to use an equilibrium push fold strategy but tightening up more I think is more successful.
    I can't argue with your reasoning. I'd like to do the math on how aj does against villains range though..i think we are really close to getting the right odds. Like you said as well, be careful who you do this to because it's really easily exploitable by good players (one of my favorite moves).
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