9-10s in the cutoff (Choose your own adventure)

[D-Nut]

Here was a very pivotal hand that I had in one of the final Caesar's events.....and just between Scott, Pat and myself, we have differing opinions on how to play just about every street. So I'd like to take this hand very slow and see opinions, as we go, then as the hand progresses, see how we end up.

My position: Cutoff
My Stack Size: 10200
Blinds 25/50

UTG (who is a very wild player, as I have seen already....but has not shown that his raising range is outside the ordinary) raises to 225. There is one caller when it get to me, so I call with (I'd think that most would agree that with stacks this large, this is a standard call in position. After me, the button calls, as well as the two blind players.

Five players to a flop of:

Both blind players check, and UTG bets 1500 into a pot of 1125. One folder, and to our hero.

Hero??

[Chipless Wonder]

I don't think my recommendation is going to be the most popular one here, but I'll offer it up for discussion anyways...

I like the pre-flop call.

I feel pretty confident that the oversized pre-flop raise from UTG, followed by his post-flop overbet indicates that he has an overpair, probably A-A, K-K, Q-Q or J-J.

I think we're way ahead now but we can't call for two reasons. First, we'd be giving calling odds to others in this hand, and the last thing we need is all these opponents to stick around for another card on such a draw heavy board when it's mathematically correct for them to do so. Second, if we call here, the pot becomes so large that we're stuck in a terrible situation on the turn with almost any card (except another 9 or 10).

So I push! I'm pretty sure the UTG raiser will call and if I win this hand, I'll most likely be able to run the table, and I'll probably be one of the chip leaders when the final table approaches. If I lose, I can go enter another tournament without having wasted too much time here.

[JBabel]

You need to raise (though I think pushing is a bit much Scott since you will probably only be called by hands that beat you (with 2 blind players still to act behind you). So with ~10K left in your stack you can make a min raise to 3K or a bit more, that should let you know if the blinds have anything without risking your whole stack and if they fold and UTG raises you then you can stack him.

But I do agree that a call here is the worst play IMHO.

Jarrod

[FrankNagaiJr]

You need to raise (though I think pushing is a bit much Scott since you will probably only be called by hands that beat you (with 2 blind players still to act behind you). So with ~10K left in your stack you can make a min raise to 3K or a bit more, that should let you know if the blinds have anything without risking your whole stack and if they fold and UTG raises you then you can stack him.

But I do agree that a call here is the worst play IMHO.

Jarrod

+1 on the raise to about 3K. If the other players go away and its you and UTG on the turn, I don't think you can fold much of anything, but if your 3K is flatted or reraised by the players yet to act, you can prolly put your tail between your legs, lick your wounds, and take comfort that the blinds are still very comfortable for a 7K stack.

Edit - And I think the preflop call is A-Okay. Implied odds up the wazoo here.

[wreaks]

Knowing the other stack sizes would help here, but I'll assume you all have about the same number of chips or that they have you covered.

With UTGs bet, the pot is now 2625. You have ~10k left. Let's look at the different options:

Fold - out of the question.
Call - weak, fails to define any hand, gives blinds the odds to chase virtually any draw.
Min-raise - stronger, says you have a good hand, or at least a strong draw, chances are the blinds will fold. leaves you with 7k and puts the pot at 5625. if UTG only calls, he will most likely check if a blank comes on the turn, giving you a chance to put in a pot-sized shove. also gives villain a chance to shove and leave you with a tough decision, since you're not quite committed yet.
Raise 4-5k - stronger, says you have a good hand, puts the pot at 6.6k-7.6k, leaving you with 6k/5k. if called, pot will be 9k/11k, and you would be hard pressed to fold to a bet on the turn, especially a small value bet, and UTG would call with almost any draw, getting odds.
The good old HIDEE-HO - strongest, all but the best hands will fold.

With the action, I would put UTG on AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AhKh, AhQh, KhQh, AhJh, or MAYBE 77 if he's been that crazy. I think QJ, if he raised PF, would not overbet the pot, even against 4 opponents. So, against his range, you are slightly behind AhJh, flipping against the Qh hands, slightly ahead of JJ and 77 and AhKh, and more than slightly ahead of AA-QQ. Against all of those hands you have a redraw if he hits his straight or flush, but will be drawing dead if he hits a set with his over pair.

In this case, I am 50/50 on the min-raise and the shove. I'm a little worried about the players behind me who might have checked a QJ, so a min-raise would give me the chance to get away if one of those players check-re-raises all-in. However, if those players fold and UTG shoves, you're left with a tough decision: is he the type that would still shove with AA-JJ or the over-hearts? If so, do you want to race for your tourney so early? A shove takes all the guess-work out of your hands, says that you have a very strong hand and don't want to give draws a chance to catch, and puts the pressure on your opponents. You might be losing a little value by doing this but this is a dangerous board and I don't think there's anything wrong with taking down the pot here.

I think this early in the tourney, I would be more inclined to min-raise, hope I only get called by UTG, hope a blank comes on the turn, and I can shove there. If I'm check-raised by one of the blinds I fold. The problem is there are so many danger cards that can come on the turn that you might not know what to do if one comes (danger cards being any heart, Q, J, 7, (and maybe 6)). So maybe I would actually shove...

See what I mean when I said I was 50/50?

[MyPowerAnimal]

I actually don't like the pre-flop call, even with a big stack and implied odds. What are you looking to hit...a straight? Straight Draw? 9Ts is a dangerous hand to play. You will often be on the low end of a straight when you hit what you are looking for. I assume you aren't really trying to hit 2 pair. You are likely trying to hit a straight or flush and with other's playing high cards you are in danger of catching the short end of a straight and getting beat by a higher one or getting beat by a higher flush draw. If you had 67s or 78s or TJs I would have agreed more with the call. I don't think it is a terrible play though...just not sure I would do it.

Now, you didn't hit a straight or straight draw or flush draw. You hit 2 pair. Nice. Like Scott, I would assume the overbet on the villain's part meant over pair...although it could be TT, 99, or 88. The scary part is there are still 3 more players to act behind you! I would see where I stand and put in a raise, but not too much..maybe a bit more than the minimum...normally I hate a min raise because it really doesn't tell you much about the villain's hand, but here it can give you information about the button and the blinds and a little info on the villian. Betting more isn't a bad option either, but it could leave you crippled if you loose or have to fold later. Not sure what the other player's stack sizes are.

I'm leaning toward a smallish raise.

[davgolf3333]

I agree with the call and im with scott, I push.
His bet says that he is not on a draw and he wants the draws gone.
So i put him on aa kk qq or jj and MAYYYBE A10.
So you cant call---hes going to make the same bet w/ aa that he would w/ a set. so if you raise to 3000 he might push w/ aa so your not going to fold anyways or at least i wouldnt if thats what i put him on.
Pushing is the best play IMO

[cusecrusher]

Once again I find myself in the minority, however in this instance I call. I see all the viable reasons to raise pre flop, and although valid I would rather not risk 35-40% of my stack with players behind me. If one of them plays back at me I hate my spot and now I'm stuck with a very tough decision for my stack.

The reason I opt for the calling route is because Dave as well as myself, I consider us very good at reading people and putting them on hands. When first hearing his story it was very apparent to me as well as him at the time that the original pre flop raiser had AA, Kk, or QQ. Knowing this I see no harm in letting a card peel off. If a blank rolls off you can now put the hammer down and end the end or get him to stack off with just an overpair.

Another reason for my call is because of the players behind me. I feel that by flat calling myself, if someone else flats im fairly certain its a drawing hand, and you can proceed and re-evaluate after the turn peels off. After we call the huge raise I think if a blind flopped a set they have to raise us both with such a scary board, and I think we can escape with minimal harm instead of throwing in a 4k raise.

I see and can agree with all the advocates of the raise or shove, however my thinking and style of play I flat call, and hopefully stack the oblivious pre flop raiser with this overpair on the turn.

[Dr Fill Good]

Pusssssssshhhhhhhhh, put the other people to the decision.

[CW Buckeye]

I like the push here as well. I don't like any other raise because I give him the opportunity to come back over the top with a lot of hands, and honestly, I want the pressure on him, not me.

I think he has an overpair and probably won't be able to get away from it. If that's the case, he may see my push as being on a likely draw with that board and will probably call.

I don't like the flat call. Why, when I know I have the best hand right now, would I want to price draws in? To me, that's the same as playing your AA soft and allowing too many in preflop. The more that are in the hand, the less likey your hand is to win.

If you are going to play 9 T to a raise preflop, what are you hoping to flop? I think this is one of the better flop possibilities, and that when you hit it, you need to play the hand strong.

I think you push.