Can you lay this down???

[PokerBroker]

Tonight at George's tournament...

6 handed blinds still at 25/50 with 7500 starting chips...

UTG limps preflop but appears to be itching to raise preflop... I picked up a number of tells on this one...

I look down at 87s UTG+1 and decided to raise to $175 here to establish some strenth in my hand fully expecting UTG to reraise... BTN and SB call... UTG raises to 550... I take my time here but fully intend to call because this is the situation I was looking for...

I feel I can now effectively put UTG on a strong pair... and the two players behind me had really made "priced in" calls... I am calling 375 to win 1125 and love my hand in this spot... I have even better pot odds if I get calls behind me again... BTN gives speech about being priced in and calls, SB folds...

Pot size = $1875

Flop comes 887...

UTG leads out with $1000... I go in the tank after flopping the absolute nuts and begin planning my extortion... UTG has now confirmed the strength (AA, KK, QQ) I had already put him on and I start to see green... I call, BTN folds...

Turn comes J... villain checks... I don't like this check here because I really feel like AA, KK, QQ has to fire again here now that there is a flush and straight draw on the board... I reevaluate and add JJ or TT to his range of possible hands and check behind expecting to raise or snap call the river... I could bet here but I feel I may lose him if he has an overpair or AK and I would really like to give him one more opportunity to fire at me on the river...

River comes T... villain tanks then pushes allin for $5000+ into $3875 pot... this really gets my wheels turning... I really feel like TT or JJ is more likely to value bet here hoping I have a piece and call... I feel like AA, KK, QQ are more likely to push here as a semibluff hoping to push me off a big hand... I also add 99 to the possible hands that could reraise preflop, fire on the flop when undercards come, check the scary J, then push with the straight on the river...

I have effectively put him on 6 possible hands, two of which have me beat...

What do you do???

[otbdave]

Online, I call, if he has TT or JJ you are supposed to go broke. IMO.

Live however the reads here are player specific, some players only overshove the river with the nuts. To these players you can argue for folding...

[Kojangie]

Can you lay this down???

No, no I can't.

[ohpokergal]

How do you fold here, Ryan? But it's early in the tourney, so folding to a weaker hand is only a small error....

Cash game, I think there's no way you fold, but in a tourney, you can argue that the Jack gave him (or her) a higher boat.

Unfortunately, since you posted this at 7p, I'm guessing that you called, and the villain had JJs.

Right? Tough luck....

[Chipless Wonder]

I think you made an awesome read Ryan, but even with your read, how in the world could you ever fold a hand that strong?

His all-in on the river would have helped to convince me that he didn't WANT a call, so I would have called in two seconds.

[D-Nut]

Yea, I agree with Dave....that this is really read-specific....based on who I am playing with, etc. Can I sit here and say that I'm laying this down for sure? Not a chance. Can I release this hand if I can somehow determine that there is a good chance I am beat? Yes. But I am a big proponent of trusting my reads no matter how smart or stupid they make me look.....so if that makes me laydown 2nd nuts or 3rd nuts or whatever, and a guy shows me a big bluff.....so be it.

I will say that I probably would have raised the flop, and this might have gotten your money in when you knew you were good, and if you got drawn out on, you would be able to sleep better at night. If you played this hand with the express intent that your villian had an overpair, you had to think that he was not laying this hand down to your raise post flop. I think that a flat call is more telling than a raise in this spot.....and if he did happen to back into a bigger boat on the end, he had probably accurately put you on a very strong, but 2nd best hand at this point, and knew you werent getting away...so might as well bet it all.

[SparX]

"I look down at 87s UTG+1 and decided to raise to $175 here to establish some strenth in my hand fully expecting UTG to reraise... BTN and SB call... UTG raises to 550... I take my time here but fully intend to call because this is the situation I was looking for..."

this paragraph made my head explode

[Chipless Wonder]

this paragraph made my head explode

LOL Chris!

I felt the same way initially, but Ryan reads hands so well that this method works for him. He actually showed me his cards as he was considering a fold and it shocked me for two reasons. First, I was amazed that he had played cards like that so strongly early in the hand. And second, I was even more shocked that he had a good enough read to consider folding on the river.

[PokerBroker]

"I look down at 87s UTG+1 and decided to raise to $175 here to establish some strenth in my hand fully expecting UTG to reraise... BTN and SB call... UTG raises to 550... I take my time here but fully intend to call because this is the situation I was looking for..."

this paragraph made my head explode

Also consider that we are playing 6-handed at this point so UTG+1 isn't exactly early position... and I'll take a stab at large pairs with middle connectors just about every time for the right price because implied odds are so strong...

I think the cash player in me inevitabley made this call... maybe a good tourney player could make this lay down given that it was soooooo early in the tournament... anyways, he showed down TT for the rivered boat

[otbdave]

I dont think going post flop with your stack being 4 times the pot size offers nearly the pot odds to justify this preflop line... ESP if you think you need to chase down an overpair.