Dr Fold Good? or Dr Fold Bad?

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Originally Posted by Chewbacca Nuts

I would have led out on the flop. If this was a hand you were willing to get away from in the first place, then you would have saved a few chips assuming he reraises.

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This is a big point I wanted to discuss, this was not a difficult fold in this situation. But could the argument be made that I misplayed my hand.

If I lead the flop, do I automatically fold to a re-raise? Could I check call there? I check-raised there because I felt it was the only way I could get value out of hands I have beat, and I would find out exactly where I was in the hand. I also felt like if I lead out and was re-raised I might end up giving away more chips. Whats your guys thoughts on this?

Whenever I have an over pair or top pair like 77 - 99, I will usually lead out with a pot sized bet. Almost every card on the turn is a scare card, so I would rather take it down there and not take chances. Only problem is, if I get reraised, I'm probably going to go broke. In that case, it probably depends on the situation and the board texture, i.e. 0 gap straight, 3 suited cards, etc.

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Originally Posted by Chewbacca Nuts

Whenever I have an over pair or top pair like 77 - 99, I will usually lead out with a pot sized bet. Almost every card on the turn is a scare card, so I would rather take it down there and not take chances. Only problem is, if I get reraised, I'm probably going to go broke. In that case, it probably depends on the situation and the board texture, i.e. 0 gap straight, 3 suited cards, etc.

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Using your strategy in this hand, I'd risk the exact same amount of chips as I ended up losing. I will never get any action from a hand that I have beat, and will always lose to a hand that has me crushed. I'll also end up losing my stack if I misread someone for a bluff. You are minimizing the info you get, while maximizing the info for your opponent.

Using the check-raise, first and foremost you have tons of info on your opponent now. Secondly it is a much stronger play. I could conceivably see 88 or 99 folding to this bet(if the player was capable of making that lay down) Thirdly, you are getting more chips out of it.

Brilliant break down.. When I am playing solid poker this is the type of theory that is running through my mind.

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Originally Posted by Dr Fill Good

Using your strategy in this hand, I'd risk the exact same amount of chips as I ended up losing. I will never get any action from a hand that I have beat, and will always lose to a hand that has me crushed. I'll also end up losing my stack if I misread someone for a bluff. You are minimizing the info you get, while maximizing the info for your opponent.

Using the check-raise, first and foremost you have tons of info on your opponent now. Secondly it is a much stronger play. I could conceivably see 88 or 99 folding to this bet(if the player was capable of making that lay down) Thirdly, you are getting more chips out of it.

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Originally Posted by Dr Fill Good

Using your strategy in this hand, I'd risk the exact same amount of chips as I ended up losing. I will never get any action from a hand that I have beat, and will always lose to a hand that has me crushed. I'll also end up losing my stack if I misread someone for a bluff. You are minimizing the info you get, while maximizing the info for your opponent.

Using the check-raise, first and foremost you have tons of info on your opponent now. Secondly it is a much stronger play. I could conceivably see 88 or 99 folding to this bet(if the player was capable of making that lay down) Thirdly, you are getting more chips out of it.

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Ok, so in a case where he checks, about 90% of the cards that come on the turn will cause me to shut down and lose almost any chance to take down what's already in the pot. Only the 2 remaining 7's keep in there.

I guess with your approach it's all or nothing. When I say "all" I mean extracting a few more chips with the C-R. And I mean "nothing" because you are certainly going to shut down if he calls your C-R and anything but a 7 turns on 4th street.

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Originally Posted by Chewbacca Nuts

Ok, so in a case where he checks, about 90% of the cards that come on the turn will cause me to shut down and lose almost any chance to take down what's already in the pot. Only the 2 remaining 7's keep in there.

I guess with your approach it's all or nothing. When I say "all" I mean extracting a few more chips with the C-R. And I mean "nothing" because you are certainly going to shut down if he calls your C-R and anything but a 7 turns on 4th street.

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90% of the cards make you shut it down? So any 2-6 makes you shut it down, what about 8-10? They're is definitely scare cards that you don't want to see, but many cards that roll off will not stop you from being able to take down the hand.

Would you ever limp preflop with AA? Slowplay them if you will. I'm pretty sure everyone has at least once. There are a ton of scary flops for AA but people still take that risk, so they can get more value from their premium hand. I feel like every hand you play, you have to be thinking about maximizing your value from it, and its equally important to think about minimizing losses.

Making a pot sized bet on that flop minimizes your winnings, and has the potential to lose your entire stack, its kind of a nothing or all situation. Either you walk away with nothing more, or lose all of your stack.

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Originally Posted by Dr Fill Good

90% of the cards make you shut it down? So any 2-6 makes you shut it down, what about 8-10? They're is definitely scare cards that you don't want to see, but many cards that roll off will not stop you from being able to take down the hand.

Would you ever limp preflop with AA? Slowplay them if you will. I'm pretty sure everyone has at least once. There are a ton of scary flops for AA but people still take that risk, so they can get more value from their premium hand. I feel like every hand you play, you have to be thinking about maximizing your value from it, and its equally important to think about minimizing losses.

Making a pot sized bet on that flop minimizes your winnings, and has the potential to lose your entire stack, its kind of a nothing or all situation. Either you walk away with nothing more, or lose all of your stack.

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Definitely an approach I need to put more thought into. Good discussion.

I can see both sides, but I like a follow through bet on the flop here too. Usually about 2/3 the size of the pot. There are a lot of draws out there(flush draw, 65 etc.) that I would not want to give free cards to, and there is no reason to think the last guy will bet.

So following through there on the flop gives you a chance to win the pot right away, as anyone with high cards is going to fold (and probably check if checked to).

Also, I don't think you will make much money with a check raise. You are only going to win the 1200 that he bet because if he calls you or reraises, you are out of position and in trouble...

I experimented with this approach a little last night. I had mixed results and questions when to apply it. Do you like the CR only in HU situations?

I'm going to respond to both you and slaz tomorrow chewy, just haven't had time.