To Check or Not to Check Down?

Hello, something happened yesterday in a live MTT that I need to discuss and get a better understanding of. Here's what happened, UTG is very short stacked and raises. Everyone fold around to me, I'm in the middle position with A8o, I call, everyone else folds until the BB and he calls. Flop come K42. BB checks, at this point I do the unexplainable, I bet. My thinking was, if nobody hit that King, then I'm ahead, I felt the short stack didn't have a good hand and was only in the hand because he was the BB next hand. I'm at a point that I have half the chips that I started with, and I'm desparate to win this pot. Also, I fell I have better chances of beating one of them instead of both of them, so reduce the chance of BB sucking out on me. So it's either go home or have chips to gamble with later. Anyway the BB folds, we flip them over, short stack did indeed hit his King, I lose the hand, as the BB goes off on me. Then it got a little ugly, and the fun factor went from about 8.5 to a 2 the rest of the night, but thats a different story.

Second part of the story, I get moved to a different table and in the SB. Everyone folds until the Button and he is all-in but doesnt have enough to cover a comlete bet. I have J8o and decide to complete the bet. Then the BB raises, I fold. They flip over the cards the raiser has AJo, I think the button had small connectors. Ironically, the all-in hits a pair and takes the pot, while 4 hearts were on the board and my Jack of hearts would have won me the pot.

One of the main difference to the these two parts of the story is, one bet was made after the flop and the second part of the story the bet was made preflop.

My question is, is it ok for the guy to raise there preflop, when it wasn't OK for me to raise post flop? Also is there any circumstance at all that it's OK to raise after the flop like I did, when you didnt even hit a pair?

This is a very difficult subject to fully explain.. The answer to your question depends on a lot of factors...

The first factor of importance in my opinion would be the overall skill level of the game that you are playing in.. When I first started playing poker ($20 dollar game 20 people w/ 15min blinds) this issue rarely if ever was brought up... So my first response would be that if the level of play is more than just beginner then it will probably be an accepted practice not to bet out another opponent post flop in a dry pot w/o a monster hand or the nuts.. And the reason is that there is nothing to gain since the pot is won or lost w/ the all in player.. So the benefit of checking it down would be that you potentially eliminate a player from the event and you are able to see all 5 cards to win the hand.. This lends itself to have more and more bad hands limp into the pot in an effort to eliminate said player.

The second factor would be that it is more widely accepted to raise preflop then it is to raise w/ nothing post flop w/ a dry pot.. Obviously if it is raised preflop the pot is no longer a dry pot and there is more to win than just what the all in player has and therefore the hand takes on a new dynamic... So in my opinion if that first situation occurred and you had say AK and you raised preflop and the other player folded, I would think your play would be widely accepted in the poker world even if you would have lost the hand..

The third factor in my opinion is the size of the event and the timing of the all in.. If the event is a large one it might make a big difference on if it would be acceptable to bet out into a dry pot w/o a made hand or small pair w/ over cards on the board.. The players might not be so upset since eliminating one player out of say 200, 500 5k doesn't make such a big difference in the big scheme of things.. Also the timing of the all in should be considered when you consider this unwritten rule.. If it is early in a small tourney it might not be looked at as such a bad play but in contrast if this happens at or near the bubble, players will most likely become upset w/ your play...

Overall this decision to bet out into a dry pot preflop/postflop is a personal one but all though the rule is unwritten it makes sense that your objective in all events is to take out other players.. So you can understand that under most circumstances the best way to do that is by checking down a dry pot..

Oh one more point, if another player moves all in and has say half or even less (250 of the 800 BB) of the BB then all bets are off (no pun intended) on checking it down since now there is potentially more to win in a side pot..

I hope I was able to explain this in a way that makes sense.

By the way great first post...

Yep Ben pretty much covered it.

I think people get a little too sensitive on this subject when in my opinion it is quite simple.

The only time this is really an issue is near the bubble of an event. Otherwise, eliminations aren't that significant, at least it doesnt outweigh the importance of protecting a hand that you think is best.

People will berate you for betting into a dry pot, but it is still a pot. So why check this down to the river, and let the other player with chips catch up and take that pot? Look at it this way.....if you flopped top pair with 9-10 would you check it down so the guy with A-K wins? Probably not. Same scenario, except someone is all-in. Now, the only factor you have to judge is whether or not that elimination is significant. By the sounds of it, you were short on chips too, and that pot was going to be a pot, that you thought you were ahead to win, and that obviously at the time was more important than knocking out another player. The other guy I'm sure was just mad that he didnt get to suck out on you....and used the dry pot argument. It sounds like you guys were nowhere near the bubble (since this happened again later)

The 2nd one was OK too, I think......the guy had a legitimate hand and wanted to isolate a SB limper. But again....if this was on the bubble, he might have just called and checked it down.

Nice explaination Ben,

Geee do you play poker???

The only time I will raise on an all in pre-flop is to protect my hand(i.e. high pp or big slick). The only time I will do it post flop (and this is very rarely) is when I did hit my hand somehow and desperately need chips.

Now from time to time you will get people who will protect their friends and push all-in to isolate and protect. This happened to me in Canada at a tourney. One of the semi-pros was protecting Brad Booths foster dad (she and Brad were dating at the time) and after he had pushed all-in for about 4,000(we were late in the tourney at this point) there were 2 other callers, myself included, and she pushed all-in with her mega-stack. After a little grumbling on my part I folded only to find she had :6d: :4d:. The flop comes
:6c: :4c: :4h:. ::rocketwhore::

Opppppppsssssss


So much for protecting:D

You bet with ace high (probably better than BB had) so you bet out. No one stopped him calling with a worst hand than that. You are playing a game, you have bought in with the same amount of money as everyone else and you can play your cards however you like. If it was on the bubble it is a bad play, but even then why let someone with a worst hand catch up and beat you. As for the second part of the story he had every right to raise you also. In my opinion we are all in it to win not watch others go out. I once called a tiny all in with 94 suited when I new SB was pushing with whatever he had. I was big blind and the 2 limpers called as well. 9 was highest card on board and I bet it big, limpers folded and small blind turned over 77. He hit set on river and I was attacked by whole sng table. I argued back that I never stopped anyone calling my bet and I continued to argue with each one of them until I had knocked them all out.:D. Even if you made the worst play in the world in my opinion no one has the right to attack you for it.

Ok I am not an expert at SnGs, but have played my fair share on-line as well as live. Not really sure of my stats but feel like I have won money in half of them... anyways, here is my question for discussion:
If there is one all-in player(particularly shortstacked) and 2 or 3 callers, isn't it appropriate to check it down with other player. The idea being to eliminate the all-in player and 2 hands have a better chance than one. Why bet into a dry pot? So what do you think? How do ya'll play?

I do not follow the "ettiquette" rule of checking down. Every situation is different.

I would not push into a dry side pot in a satellite tournament that pays top 6 when there is 7 players left though...