AQ in SB (Bubble Play Tourney)

**D-Nut** · 02-21-2009 12:16 PM

Now this one is more of a tournament theory question than an actual hand play question.....

Here is the hand first:

Blinds 250-500-50

(Now let me preface by saying that the tourney is the 50/50 on FTP, and my tables have been stacked with very good players and even some big names)

I am in the SB with roughly 12500 (average chip stack)
Villian has roughly 15K

The hand folds to the cutoff who raises to 1250. Folds to me in the SB, and I look at

I 3-bet to 3250....back to the cutoff who pauses and raises me all-in. I call.....villian shows 4-4. I flop air....turn a queen of spades...he rivers his one outer, and I'm on the rail.

Now....here is where my question lies. When I 3-bet, I subconsciously left enough fold equity for my villian to shove all-in and think he could make me fold.....what ultimately happened is that I created a race situation, that may not have been created if I had simply shoved all-in.

Now....my issue with bubble and mid stage tourney play is that I used to show down NO hands....I'd fold to pressure and widdle away and cash just beyond the bubble......NOW, fast forward to now....I'm showing down TOO MANY hands....and as we all know, you showdown too many, math dictates that you're gonna lose your fair share.....so I am thinking it is important to pick up non contested pots, and thats not what I'm doing (This hand as an example)

So.....did I make a mistake by 3 betting short here?

**Ivan_Drago45** · 02-21-2009 01:40 PM

How much did the other guy have at the start of the hand?

**D-Nut** · 02-21-2009 01:42 PM

Sorry about that....

Villian had me covered by 3000

**DefyOddz** · 02-21-2009 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by D-Nut

Now this one is more of a tournament theory question than an actual hand play question.....

Here is the hand first:

Blinds 250-500-50

(Now let me preface by saying that the tourney is the 50/50 on FTP, and my tables have been stacked with very good players and even some big names)

I am in the SB with roughly 12500 (average chip stack)
Villian has roughly 15K

The hand folds to the cutoff who raises to 1250. Folds to me in the SB, and I look at

I 3-bet to 3250....back to the cutoff who pauses and raises me all-in. I call.....villian shows 4-4. I flop air....turn a queen of spades...he rivers his one outer, and I'm on the rail.

Now....here is where my question lies. When I 3-bet, I subconsciously left enough fold equity for my villian to shove all-in and think he could make me fold.....what ultimately happened is that I created a race situation, that may not have been created if I had simply shoved all-in.

Now....my issue with bubble and mid stage tourney play is that I used to show down NO hands....I'd fold to pressure and widdle away and cash just beyond the bubble......NOW, fast forward to now....I'm showing down TOO MANY hands....and as we all know, you showdown too many, math dictates that you're gonna lose your fair share.....so I am thinking it is important to pick up non contested pots, and thats not what I'm doing (This hand as an example)

So.....did I make a mistake by 3 betting short here?

shove pre, prolly same result though, flatting being the worst of the 3 options

edit- your 3 bet could have been larger % of your stack taking away his FE and turning your hand into a stop-n-go

**cardsfan04** · 02-21-2009 08:05 PM

There is nothing wrong with your 3bet size. 3bets should almost always be 2.5-4x the original raise and this falls comfortably in that range.

What part of that range depends on what your 3bet is trying to accomplish. Are you trying to take it down PF? If so, why? Are you trying to give the illusion of FE (which I somewhat like here)?

There are several scenarios that you will run into here:

1. He has a monster and your bet size doesn't matter.

2. He's aggro and creative, very capable of 4betting light. If this is the case, I love your bet size.

3. He's spewy and defends chips put in the pot. If this is the case, I like a bigger raise (and possibly a jam, depending on just how spewy he is). If he will call w/ hands like KQ/AT, I love a jam for value. If he will see a flop w/ a small raise, I like a raise to 4K, to set up a go n go.

Against spewy players who have to protect chips in the pot (but not so bad to call an allin light; I'm talking the player who raise/calls JT here, but folds to a jam), I try to set up a pot size bet on the flop, so I increase value and avoid a showdown.

**King6ofClubs** · 02-22-2009 01:10 AM

The 3 bet is fine but since you are oop from the SB i usually like to take this down pre i would raise a lil more too make it look like you have no FE and discourage him from 4betting all in

**dyehard** · 02-22-2009 03:26 AM

I am really surprised that his hand was as weak as it was. Whenever I see a 3 bet, I thinking AA, KK, AK. Whenever I see a 4 bet, I'm running for the hills. I would have 3 bet to about $4k and folded to his all in 4 bet.

**D-Nut** · 02-22-2009 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Chewbacca Nuts

I am really surprised that his hand was as weak as it was. Whenever I see a 3 bet, I thinking AA, KK, AK. Whenever I see a 4 bet, I'm running for the hills. I would have 3 bet to about $4k and folded to his all in 4 bet.

Nah....the game has evolved so much over the last couple years that the middle parts of the MTTs are all about fold equity. Opening range in late position is so wide that it is only natural for 3bet range to open up, and so on and so forth......and it leads to a spew session where guys want to get it all in with hands like AQ and 44. Happens in every MTT, and if you arent willing to open your range up, you end up getting left blinded and anted away. I personally hate it.....but that's the way it is.

**dyehard** · 02-22-2009 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by D-Nut

Nah....the game has evolved so much over the last couple years that the middle parts of the MTTs are all about fold equity. Opening range in late position is so wide that it is only natural for 3bet range to open up, and so on and so forth......and it leads to a spew session where guys want to get it all in with hands like AQ and 44. Happens in every MTT, and if you arent willing to open your range up, you end up getting left blinded and anted away. I personally hate it.....but that's the way it is.

Ok, I agree that 3 betting can come from a wider range of hands. That thought actually went through my head when I responded before. However, a 4 bet, in most cases has to be at least QQ or better doesn't it? Especially from a non short stack going all in.

I guess my big issue is what kind of hand did you put him on that was worse than yours? Was it really reasonable for him to 4 bet all his chips with AJ or worse? My only guess is that you put him on mid to low PP and was willing to be a slight underdog in a race. But, I think you're a better player than that. So I'm not really sure why you call there.

**cardsfan04** · 02-23-2009 04:06 AM

Originally Posted by Chewbacca Nuts

Ok, I agree that 3 betting can come from a wider range of hands. That thought actually went through my head when I responded before. However, a 4 bet, in most cases has to be at least QQ or better doesn't it? Especially from a non short stack going all in.

I guess my big issue is what kind of hand did you put him on that was worse than yours? Was it really reasonable for him to 4 bet all his chips with AJ or worse? My only guess is that you put him on mid to low PP and was willing to be a slight underdog in a race. But, I think you're a better player than that. So I'm not really sure why you call there.

4bets aren't just QQ+, it depends on the situation. If I open, and a laggy (who knows I'm laggy) 3bets, I'm shipping hands like 78s a ton if I think I have FE.

If the way to counter looser open raises is to 3bet wider, the way to counter wider 3bets is to 4bet wider.