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I'm UTG+1, look down at :Kd::Qd:. Big blind is relatively small, I have about 5k in chips, blinds are 100/200 with 25 ante. Table is heavy on chips, with the table average around 7.5-8k. I raise to 600, Player A calls, everyone else folds. I don't have much info on A (he just moved to our table a couple hands before) except that he has about 7k in chips.
Flop is:
:Kc::9d::3s:
I bet out 800, he raises to 2000. I have about 3500-4000 left. What do I do? What do you put him on?
Raising KQ in EP at a full ring is very marginal due to it being dominated by so many hands.
As for the villain, two pair (K9) or a set (99) since there are no apparent draws.
Fold your hand and wait for a better spot.
You do not want to play big pots out of position.
Your stack is definitely too short to raise KQ here. Some reads would be nice. What position was villain in when he called?
You got almost the exact flop you were looking for... I know live players are terrible (nitty) but I have a hard time believing that you could put 30% of your stack into the pot and fold to a single raise. Obviously you can't flat call, so I push.
33/99/AK all would not surprise me, but neither would KJ, K10, JJ, 1010...
Wow.....I take great exception to your comment. Maybe it is just early and I'm grumpy.....but obviously there are a ton of "terrible" players everywhere....Quote:
Originally Posted by SparX
That's not the first time that you have turned your nose up at live play by stating something along the lines of online play being so much more advanced than live play. I think it's BS. I guess I've turned my nose up at online players as well, so I guess fair is fair.....I've stated a number of times that the best online players are simply the most reckless and overuse their fold equity as many times as they can. If they just so happen to run into a monster....oh well, it is just bad luck. Dont get me wrong.....I see the theory of using your fold equity to it's fullest.....but I would say that in any given online tourney, these "successful" players get their money in about 5 times more than any "successful" live player......and I've yet to figure out how that is more "advanced". I've also yet to figure out how any player can "focus" on 8-20 separate games at any given time and still pay attention to the intricacies and nuances of the game. I'm sure it has a lot to do with all of the "help" that poker tracking programs etc. can provide.....which to be honest I have a big problem with as well. I mean....do I have anything besides my eyes at a live game to pay attention to how someone is playing? Nope. And in my opinion that is the way it should be.
Of course everyone has their opinion....and obviously ours differs quite a bit...and I can respect that. I know you are a successful online player, and I respect that too. But my point is to come in here and state that all live players are terrible.....especially when I know most people in this forum consider themselves "live players" is a pretty bold statement, and kinda snooty in my book....
There are plenty of live leagues around town here that I'm sure you can get an invite to. Mine included....so if you ever feel like dominating my league, let me know, and we'll hook you up.
The backdoor diamonds are coming. Push.
I love flopping a king here. Since AK never flat calls your original raise and K9 would have folded, the only hands you're really worried about are 99 or a slow-played KK/AA. More likely, he feels like his 10'ss or J's are good here and expects you to lay down after what he considered a C-bet bluff.
If you had more chips, there might be a possibility to fold it, but no way. You gotta push.
Oh, and I know I'm walking into what appears to be a personal dispute, but I have to weigh in on the online vs live discussion. As an online player, I agree with you that, in general, play is more aggressive. But that doesnt mean that this is the wrong play in this situation. Also, not all successful internet players 8-table or use "helper" programs. I do neither. And I do just fine, thankyouverymuch.
In fact, I love seeing people with that many windows up. That just means they're not paying attention and will be playing ABC poker.
I agree with you that the HUDs and other "helper" programs are tantamount to cheating, but that can be exploited as well. Especially in SNGs, since those wonderful programs will simply lead them astray once my play starts switching gears.
Also, you seem to be mixing apples and oranges when you say that online players over-use their fold equity. In SNGs, definitely. It's the nature of the game. But not so in multi-table tournaments. I'd actually go so far as to say most online players play very tight in larger tourneys. Maybe you mean cash games? I wouldnt really know, since I'm a tournament-only person, but again that'd be apples and oranges...
I apologize. Obviously, "terrible" is a broad and inaccurate generalization. I certainly do not mean to offend any of the great players on this forum or start a personal dispute. You have some interesting and valid points, but I would rather not debate them in this setting, as they already have been debated ad nauseum (without result) in many other channels. Agree to disagree I suppose.
That being said, what I meant was that (in my opinion) your average live player will play fairly straightforward and a raise often is representative of a strong hand, as they will tend to call more often with marginal hands. This is certainly a borderline spot, and you could definitely make an argument for folding here, depending on reads and tournament structure.
I will vote for pushing because of the flop structure (villain will likely flat call a set since board is pretty dry) and villain has no idea how strong you are.
Sparx, It is OUR privilege to have a person with your success posting comments on this board.
People tend to forget everyone is entitled to an opinion and any opinion you offer about poker or hand plays is respected by myself and several others.
Thank you for your insight.
No big deal Chris, and certainly no need for an apology :) That is what the forum is about....opinions...and everyone has one, and more importantly not everyone's opinion will always agree. I was just defending live play, because while it is certainly different than online play, I dont think that players are neccessarily terrible in either genre......there are guys who excel online and are considered great online players (I'm not one and will probably never be one), and obviously there are guys considered great live players (I have aspirations of being one someday)Quote:
Originally Posted by SparX
On a side note....I do think it is wildly entertaining and proves my point to see the best of both worlds collide. Did anyone see the WPT final table about a week ago with Kevin Saul (BelowAbove) and Matusow amongst others? I havent watched the whole thing.....but I will soon. I did see enough to know that the games are completely different, but still very good at what they do. I just dont have the heart to play like Saul.....the guy is obviously extremely successful, but I for the life of me cant understand that style. I would LOVE to listen to him give a play by play of his thought process when he plays.
And sorry Derek for hi-jacking your thread. But since I hijacked it, I better contribute some opinion worthwhile in here.
In your hand, it has already been said that your stack is really not conducive to raising OOP here, and I agree 100%, because it leads to you making decisions like this for your entire stack with a very vulnerable hand. But that's not the question......AND with that being the case and the fact that you have chosen to play this hand OOP for what has turned into a large pot, I can't see how you get away. As said....my read is that this is a probing raise. If I held 10-10 or JJ here, or really even a PP between 8's and 4's, I'd make this exact raise. My play woudn't be to fold a PP on a harmless board like this, and I think I would have to find out where I'm at in the hand sooner rather than later with a vulnerable hand myself.....so this raise really has a large range....and that is obviously a good thing.
From the villain POV, what hands do you think he is putting you on in that position? UTG +2 standard raise followed by a standard no-draw C-bet=
AK, AQ, KQ, KJ, QQ, JJ, 1010?
He knows if you call his raise you are committed to the pot, so this should set off some bells and whistles. He/she must think they have you dominated.
IMO, you are beat, throw away the hand and pick a better spot.