Question for the Tournament Guru's

[donkeysmasher]

Well, I have stated many times in this forum that I am not much of a tournament player. I play a very mathmatical cash game and tend to apply the same math to tourneys, with a few exceptions of course. I have been told by buddies that play alot of tourneys that i tend to use math too much in tourneys. Anyway, here is my question.

I was in a tourney this past friday and I was at the final table. I had about 85,000 in chips which I think was the second biggest stack. Im in the BB and the blinds are 3000/6000. Everyone folds to the button who moves all in for 17,000. The SB folds and I say out lout "I think I have to call no matter what. I have to call without looking" The guy says I cant be serious and then I call the 11,000 without looking at my cards. My reasoning is, I have 6,000 in the pot. Plus the 3,000 SB and the 17,000 the Button put in. So I have to call 11,000 to win 26,000. Im close to 2.5-1 on my money and if he just has two high cards Im good. I figured he was likely to have anything since he was short stacked and only going against the blinds. If he has a big pair is the only way im really in trouble here. So he turns over A-Q and I turn over 5-2.. I flop a 2, he turns a Q, and I hit my 5 on the river to make 2 pair. He walked away mumbling and the table thought I was nuts. I explained to them briefly that that is why I called without looking. If I would have looked down at 5-2 I would have folded even though i thought it was correct to call with any two cards. What is your take? What would you have done?

[charlton49]

My blind call range maxes around 4-5BB depending on my chip stack, the avg chip stack, blind structure, opponent's talent, and the quality of the table. Based on your chip stack alone (~14BB), and a potential loss dropping you to 10BB, I may take a pass here.

Furthermore, if you're sitting second in chips at 14BB, the blinds may in fact may be moving aggressively... meaning I value holding onto my chips more than i do calling a gamble.

How many people are left at the final table and what are the avg chip stacks?

[donkeysmasher]

There was still a full table of 9 left. The chip leader had a huge lead, probably 120-140,000. The average was probably 30-40,000. Numbers may be off a little but its pretty close.

[fauxpas360]

There are several issues to consider here, but I will say that your move was certainly not out in left field. The other players at your table must not be serious tournament players either if they were going nuts about that call.

My first question is about the payout structure. Were you already in the money? Was it top-heavy or a more flat payout? The more top-heavy it is, the more likely I would be to call.

Second question would be the average chip stack. The lower the other players are, the more likely I am to call. Would a call and a loss keep you in the top 2-3 stacks? Or are the other players all hovering around 10x BBs with only this one shorty hanging on?

My last question is the looseness of the table. The looser the table, the less likely I am to make this call. The reasoning here is that the shorty will not be able to steal repeatedly and will therefore most likely be going out soon anyway.

Getting 2.5/1 on your money is really less an issue at this point in a tournament than the opportunity to knock out a player at a small cost. The player didn't even have 3 BBs left and you'll have 74000 chips left after the call. You're still going to be sitting at 11BBs even if you lose. It's definitely a close call but I couldnt really fault either play here depending on the questions above....

[Chipless Wonder]

I like your call here. Getting more than 2:1 on your money from the big blind is a decent deal, even with a garbage hand, unless you have reason to believe your opponent has a monster. Plus, you're not hurt if you lose.

[ohpokergal]

Great question, Mike.

I do believe, however, that your play is more "cash" minded vs. "tournament", and I'm sure an argument can be made for either action.

I agree, in cash play, the cards probably don't matter. I'm not sure that it's ever prudent to play blind, but you're probably live, and let's see what happens. The dollar value remains the same on every play.

In a tournament, though, the value of each chip changes as the tournament moves into higher and higher blinds and antes, and you have to adjust your play as well. If you're sitting with $85k and you put $6k into the pot for the BB, you now have $79k (about 13 big blinds).

Calling $11k (2 big blinds) leaves you with approximately 11 big blinds. Now you've put yourself in a position to become one of the average (and nearly short) stacks. It's risky, particularly blind.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't call if you wake up with a decent hand, but I don't want to become shortstacked by playing a mediocre hand against an all in. Even if I'm getting 2.5 to 1 on my money -- the cost to my stack is worth more than that.

A typical tournament strategy is to take down stacks in early rounds, and steal blinds and antes in later rounds. Actually reducing your risks as the value of your chips are also reduced.

To explain what I mean by value of chips being reduced, I would use the example of a fast tournament - like at Gemini.

$3500 starting stack and 15 minute blinds. Blinds start at $25/$50. Everybody has 70 BB, right? One very short hour later, the blinds are now moved to $150/$300. If you still have $3500 in chips, you now only have 11 BB.

You think, how did that happen?? I've played tight, and picked up a couple of small pots! Now you move into short stack mentality and think "I'm desperate and HAVE to make a move"...

Back to the original situation - I think that I fold 5, 2.

[SNutizzle]

I'm not sure that it's ever prudent to play blind, but you're probably live, and let's see what happens.

Then you've obviously forgotten about playing cash with Reckless at Scott's kitchen table that one night once we had donked ourselves out of the tournament

[ohpokergal]

Then you've obviously forgotten about playing cash with Reckless at Scott's kitchen table that one night once we had donked ourselves out of the tournament

Actually, that's the perfect example -- but Reckless didn't outplay me, by going all in blind every hand. He just out drew me to take my $40 in about 4 minutes and 4 hands!

It was the will of the Poker Gods to teach me a lesson! And proof of the validity of my "signature"!!