Fold KK Preflop?

[D-Nut]

So....there is a debate at another site that I kind of frequent......I was not involved in this hand, but I have a pretty firm opinion....and others, who seem competant as well, have the complete opposite opinion. I'm curious the majority opinion of players on this site.

$2/$5 NL Live Cash Game

There is a $10 straddle.

Two early position callers, then a raise to $50 in middle position with

Folds to the straddler to calls the $50. Back to the original limper, who is a noted TAG, and he bumps to $210. Middle position tanks then folds his kings, and the straddler calls.

Flop comes

Straddler checks, Middle position shoves his last $500 in the pot, and straddler folds.

Is this a spot that you would folds your kings, or are you going in with the 2nd best hand in hold em', and if it isn't good enough.....that's just bad luck?

Now.......to further amplify the conversation.....I am folding here probably close to 100% of the time given the noted tightness of the player, and the way the action went down, I am putting the player on AA....and I dont really have to think too hard about it. I cant think of a scenario where a straight up villian makes this move with less than KK. Unless I have any suspicions that the player is going to make a hero move at this pot, I am laying this down here.

The players who support the all-in here, are primarily multi-tabling online cash players.....and a few are apparently successful, and I have no reason to dispute that.

Now......here is my theory, and I've talked about this with Pat Sauer quite a bit....and we think it is interesting. And this is not me flaming online players, because I could be dead wrong here...I usually am....not to mention lots of the aformentioned online players makes bank....and I only make extra spending money. But, I have noticed that when online players play so many games at once, they almost become programmed robots. They have seen every situation a million times, and they will make the same move a million times the same. In this spot....I'm sure most will say that it is simply "standard" to make this all-in here. if they have aces.....so be it, but I'm not folding KK.

I'm very curious to get both sides of this.....and maybe the reasoning for both sides.

[Kojangie]

Push with KK and ask to run it twice.

[ohpokergal]

Push with KK and ask to run it twice.

I'm probably pushing here too. My thought would be that the TAG could be making that same move with a lesser hand than AAs.

If he has AAs, then I'm gonna go broke anyway..... but why would he push on the flop like that if he had an over pair to the board. Wouldn't he want some action?

[D-Nut]

I'm probably pushing here too. My thought would be that the TAG could be making that same move with a lesser hand than AAs.

If he has AAs, then I'm gonna go broke anyway..... but why would he push on the flop like that if he had an over pair to the board. Wouldn't he want some action?

Before I answer your question, keep in mind that I am focusing on the specifi action of the player with Kings, preflop, before the the straddler has flat called, and obviously before the push on the flop.

Now.....to answer your question, yes, if I have aces in that spot, I want action, but also, I'm thinking that the most likely holding for the straddler is a pocket pair with what he perceives to have proper implied odds......or maybe a small % to AK or maybe AQ if he is not a good player. So really, we dont have a lot of options here in my opinion. We could check, but really, our hand is not likely to improve, and in my opinion, the villians range is not going to improve either.....and if it does improve, it is likely to have our hand beat. So I'd probably shove here too. I mean really (and this supports my own personal preference to fold the KK), I think the villian might as well have played his (what I think) aces face up.....so either the straddler spiked a set, or he didnt......and a simple 200-250 bet wont help us differentiate between QQ or a set anyways....so might as well get it in, in my opinion.

[DevilFish73]

I'm all in.. But again I am not a cash player or a bank player just your average poker player in a to die for body......I can't seem to fold KK online except in the most rarest of circumstances and a cash game would not be one of them...

[ThePenguin22]

I play online cash games but dont multitable and I have never folded KK before the flop. There is only one hand better than it and I only have 5 opponents (I only play 6 seaters). In your situation the TAG player could be thinking that the straddler is just stealing the pot and could be pushing with AK QQ or even JJ. Im with the players who say if he has it its just bad luck I dont fold.