Fold KK Preflop?

[D-Nut]

So....there is a debate at another site that I kind of frequent......I was not involved in this hand, but I have a pretty firm opinion....and others, who seem competant as well, have the complete opposite opinion. I'm curious the majority opinion of players on this site.

$2/$5 NL Live Cash Game

There is a $10 straddle.

Two early position callers, then a raise to $50 in middle position with

Folds to the straddler to calls the $50. Back to the original limper, who is a noted TAG, and he bumps to $210. Middle position tanks then folds his kings, and the straddler calls.

Flop comes

Straddler checks, Middle position shoves his last $500 in the pot, and straddler folds.

Is this a spot that you would folds your kings, or are you going in with the 2nd best hand in hold em', and if it isn't good enough.....that's just bad luck?

Now.......to further amplify the conversation.....I am folding here probably close to 100% of the time given the noted tightness of the player, and the way the action went down, I am putting the player on AA....and I dont really have to think too hard about it. I cant think of a scenario where a straight up villian makes this move with less than KK. Unless I have any suspicions that the player is going to make a hero move at this pot, I am laying this down here.

The players who support the all-in here, are primarily multi-tabling online cash players.....and a few are apparently successful, and I have no reason to dispute that.

Now......here is my theory, and I've talked about this with Pat Sauer quite a bit....and we think it is interesting. And this is not me flaming online players, because I could be dead wrong here...I usually am....not to mention lots of the aformentioned online players makes bank....and I only make extra spending money. But, I have noticed that when online players play so many games at once, they almost become programmed robots. They have seen every situation a million times, and they will make the same move a million times the same. In this spot....I'm sure most will say that it is simply "standard" to make this all-in here. if they have aces.....so be it, but I'm not folding KK.

I'm very curious to get both sides of this.....and maybe the reasoning for both sides.

[Kojangie]

Push with KK and ask to run it twice.

[ohpokergal]

Push with KK and ask to run it twice.

I'm probably pushing here too. My thought would be that the TAG could be making that same move with a lesser hand than AAs.

If he has AAs, then I'm gonna go broke anyway..... but why would he push on the flop like that if he had an over pair to the board. Wouldn't he want some action?

[D-Nut]

I'm probably pushing here too. My thought would be that the TAG could be making that same move with a lesser hand than AAs.

If he has AAs, then I'm gonna go broke anyway..... but why would he push on the flop like that if he had an over pair to the board. Wouldn't he want some action?

Before I answer your question, keep in mind that I am focusing on the specifi action of the player with Kings, preflop, before the the straddler has flat called, and obviously before the push on the flop.

Now.....to answer your question, yes, if I have aces in that spot, I want action, but also, I'm thinking that the most likely holding for the straddler is a pocket pair with what he perceives to have proper implied odds......or maybe a small % to AK or maybe AQ if he is not a good player. So really, we dont have a lot of options here in my opinion. We could check, but really, our hand is not likely to improve, and in my opinion, the villians range is not going to improve either.....and if it does improve, it is likely to have our hand beat. So I'd probably shove here too. I mean really (and this supports my own personal preference to fold the KK), I think the villian might as well have played his (what I think) aces face up.....so either the straddler spiked a set, or he didnt......and a simple 200-250 bet wont help us differentiate between QQ or a set anyways....so might as well get it in, in my opinion.

[DevilFish73]

I'm all in.. But again I am not a cash player or a bank player just your average poker player in a to die for body......I can't seem to fold KK online except in the most rarest of circumstances and a cash game would not be one of them...

[ThePenguin22]

I play online cash games but dont multitable and I have never folded KK before the flop. There is only one hand better than it and I only have 5 opponents (I only play 6 seaters). In your situation the TAG player could be thinking that the straddler is just stealing the pot and could be pushing with AK QQ or even JJ. Im with the players who say if he has it its just bad luck I dont fold.

[otbdave]

Push, unless you have played with the TAG player in question for over 10,000 hands.

[D-Nut]

Geez. Looks like I am the minority yet again.

But really guys, if we are talking about a very tight player, doesn't the UTG limp at a fairly aggressive table, then when the MP bumps and gets flatted, THEN the strong 3 bet by the initial limper scream AA?

I mean, I suppose this line could mean QQ, but I'm not putting much value in that. It could mean AK, but I dont see that line much with AK either.

I know that one can't get in the habit of trying to predict when someone has aces when you have kings....but in my opinion, this is one line and situation that screams it. And I've never been one to just sit back and say....well, that's just a cooler.

I may allow myself to get bluffed a lot, who knows.......

[otbdave]

UTG limping, overall tightness, etc. are far from perfect indicators of what a players 3bet range is. Any player whose 3bet range is AA and only AA has a SEVERE fault in there game but these players do exist. However, I consider it impossible to clearly identify that player in only one session of play.

When you look down at KK in a full 10 handed ring, there is a 95.6% chance that all nine of your opponents did not get dealt AA.

I really don't like to use those kinds of percentages much but what this means is that AS SOON as you look down at KK you have the nuts 19 out of 20 times at a complete ring. An even greater chance at anything more short handed. That means in the long run you should be laying down KK 1 every 20 times. Picking out that one out of twenty times is nearly impossible, therefore the correct move if you have sufficient bankroll is to play KK as it were the nuts preflop every time you see it, with very few exceptions.

Try to remember the last 20 times you got dealt KK in a live game and think about what kind of time span that encompasses... Weeks for some, months for most.

[wreaks]

Playing at the Gemini Monday, I lost a $1200 pot because I didn't lay down KK PF when I should have.

Po (OSU student, solid and fairly TAG I would say, at least at the Gemini), opened UTG+1 for $25, got one caller to my right, I reraised to $100 in LP, folded around to Po, who took a couple seconds before he announced "All-in" for another $500. If I did not have ~$1300 sitting in front of me I might have folded, or at least thought about it. Instead, I said "I'm not as good as Brad, I call." He turned over AA.

The thing that made it even MORE difficult to believe was that literally 2 or 3 hands earlier, the EXACT same thing happened. Po raised to $25 in EP, Brad (to his left) raised to $100, folded back around to Po who went all-in. Brad thought for a while, said "will you show if I fold?", Po said yes, Brad folded KK face up, Po showed AA.

Looking back I should have talked to him a little more to see if I could get more info, but I didn't. Next time I won't be so in love with my KK to only say "do you have them again?" and basically snap-call.