open ship calling ranges.

[rryu87]

Full Tilt Poker Game #14223735528: $21,000 KO Guarantee (104546466), Table 215 - 500/1000 Ante 125 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:17:31 ET - 2009/08/23
Seat 1: richlizard (10,343)
Seat 2: Pelckito (20,110)
Seat 3: intrepid007 (20,074)
Seat 4: APPLE TART (11,665)
Seat 5: Don BuBu (10,445)
Seat 6: Counting Bodies (21,411)
Seat 7: chronicATM (18,870)
Seat 8: rryu87 (62,720)
Seat 9: SandStormSeabee (39,496)
richlizard antes 125
Pelckito antes 125
intrepid007 antes 125
APPLE TART antes 125
Don BuBu antes 125
Counting Bodies antes 125
chronicATM antes 125
rryu87 antes 125
SandStormSeabee antes 125
richlizard posts the small blind of 500
Pelckito posts the big blind of 1,000
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to rryu87 []
intrepid007 folds
chronicATM: hi
APPLE TART folds
Don BuBu folds
Counting Bodies folds
chronicATM raises to 18,745, and is all in
rryu87 has 15 seconds left to act
rryu87 has requested TIME
rryu87 calls 18,745

calling ranges? K7+ Q8+ J8+ imo. What about 109s? mathwizards report.

[fauxpas360]

Certainly no math wizard, but could you explain why you're trying to find an excuse to stack off 1/3 of your chips? I call with AQ or better here.

[chronicATM]

hahaha i knew this would end up getting posted

[chronicATM]

Certainly no math wizard, but could you explain why you're trying to find an excuse to stack off 1/3 of your chips? I call with AQ or better here.

Also I completely agree with fauxpas here. With your chipstack I really don't think its great to be calling that much off and gambling. It is so easy for you to chip up without any risk in your position.

[dyehard]

Yes his range will be wide, but why is he shoving with 18 BB? Really hard to say what I would do here. Without a read I am probably folding 88 and less. Calling with AK and JJ,QQ,KK,AA. 99 and TT probably call, but depends on my read. If his shove was with 10BB or less my callling range is bit wider.

Since Jesse was the villian, it would be nice to hear his thoughts on shoving with 18BB. I usually make a standard raise with that chip stack unless there is action in front of me and I like my hand.

[rryu87]

Yes his range will be wide, but why is he shoving with 18 BB? Really hard to say what I would do here. Without a read I am probably folding 88 and less. Calling with AK and JJ,QQ,KK,AA. 99 and TT probably call, but depends on my read. If his shove was with 10BB or less my callling range is bit wider.

Since Jesse was the villian, it would be nice to hear his thoughts on shoving with 18BB. I usually make a standard raise with that chip stack unless there is action in front of me and I like my hand.

i respect chronicatm's game and consider him as a solid regular which is the reason why i called. if this was unknown random player i would never call with [ad8d] for this massive ship. I'm not going to say what chronicatm had here in respect of him, but if i have more than 60bb, and see a spot where i could possibly be ahead, why wouldn't I take that chance where I could still call/lose and be ahead of average with more than enough bb to 3bet shove with. there's no point of sitting around and waiting with 60bb if i'm not gonna use it to catapult my self. i rather have 30~40bb and play the reship game.

[dyehard]

Usually with a ship like that the shover is either holding crap or the nuts. With Ace suited at least you have outs even if he holds the nuts (AA).

But then again, he could have a hand like 66 and afraid to see a flop. So, I have no clue what an over ship means. That's where notes and reads come into play. That's why I play nitty with no reads to an over ship.

[Vestvik7]

i respect chronicatm's game and consider him as a solid regular which is the reason why i called. if this was unknown random player i would never call with [ad8d] for this massive ship. I'm not going to say what chronicatm had here in respect of him, but if i have more than 60bb, and see a spot where i could possibly be ahead, why wouldn't I take that chance where I could still call/lose and be ahead of average with more than enough bb to 3bet shove with. there's no point of sitting around and waiting with 60bb if i'm not gonna use it to catapult my self. i rather have 30~40bb and play the reship game.

For me this hand is simply a hand about two things:

CEV vs. the advantage of having the stack you will get/loose contra perserving your stack.

If you think A8 beat his shipping range here (for that it need to be a very wide shoving range) you have to look at this slightly positiv/negativ CEV spot contra the chips you will gain with your new stack/ the chips you will gain with your old stack / the chips you will gain with your stack if you loose.

My style is bigball poker for the most and I COULD make a call like this. I dont think its as horribel as some of these other guys think, but as I said my stacks functionallity mostly dictates my play in this spot.

I fold a majority in this spot.

[Vestvik7]

Usually with a ship like that the shover is either holding crap or the nuts. With Ace suited at least you have outs even if he holds the nuts (AA).

But then again, he could have a hand like 66 and afraid to see a flop. So, I have no clue what an over ship means. That's where notes and reads come into play. That's why I play nitty with no reads to an over ship.

I dont agree.

Shoving crap (72o) is just plain stupid and I dont think we will find Chronic show that hand sort of hands very often, however crap like K10 is a profitable shove in this spot and unexploitable +EV.

take a look at this article at pokerroad posted by Barry Greenstein. Shoving math discussed by the best of the best online and old school.

Shoving mathematics - PokerRoad Forums

[cdavi]

Mine is 100% situational dependent, depending on how the game is playing out. That being said, sometimes I'd rather call kq than a10s, other days I'd be willing to call a4s and not kq. With this over shove, while I know Jesse is a good player and will shove some of these hands as well to disguise them, you can, IMO, generally eliminate ak, aq, aa, kk, qq, and possibly JJ from their hands. Depending on the player, they might shove any two, which I don't think is the case here. I put Jesse on any PP, a9s or better up to aJ, kjs and kq. Therefore, I would call 88+, kq+ and aj+, possibly a10...if he's been doing it a lot, my range opens a lot more. Because it's such a large push, I really think he has 22 to 1010 range and would be willing to flip for 1/3 my stack with big cards vs a good opponent. Vs a donkey, I'd rather outplay them with better hands as they might have xx or AA.